DAVID C. KANZ

A Recovering Former Fundamentalist.....

Articles Posted: 22 Links Seeded: 333

Member Since: 9/2008 Last Seen: 1/08/2012

Bush/Cheney Should Be Held Accountable for Criminal Activity

Seeded on Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:52 AM EDT

Article Source: thomas.loc.gov

politics, dick-cheney, patriot-act, fisa, military-commissions-act, georg-w-bush

Seeded by David C. Kanz

110th CONGRESS

2d Session

H. RES. 1509

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the next president of the United States should immediately work to reverse damaging and illegal actions taken by the Bush/Cheney Administration and collaborate with Congress to proactively prevent any further abuses of executive branch power.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

September 26, 2008

Ms. BALDWIN submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, and in addition to the Committees on Armed Services, Foreign Affairs, and Select Intelligence (Permanent Select), for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned.

This is the text of HR 1509 presented to Congress by Tammy Baldwin (D) WI, and really summarizes well the activities of the current Administration with which some have taken exception.

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Published to:

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Public Discussion (161)

David C. Kanz

"Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the next president of the United States should immediately work to reverse damaging and illegal actions taken by the Bush/Cheney Administration and collaborate with Congress to proactively prevent any further abuses of executive branch power.

Whereas over the past several years, serious questions have been raised about the conduct of high ranking Bush/Cheney Administration officials in relation to some of the most basic elements of our democracy: respect for the rule of law, the principle of checks and balances, and the fundamental freedoms enshrined in the Bill of Rights;

Whereas the Bush/Cheney Administration misled the American public and the U.S. Congress regarding the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction and alleged, despite all evidence to the contrary, a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda, and this deceit dragged our country into a preemptive and unjustified war that has taken the lives of more than 4,000 United States troops, injured 30,000 more, and will cost our nation more than a trillion dollars;

Whereas the Bush/Cheney Administration undermined national security by manipulating and exaggerating evidence of Iran's nuclear weapons capabilities despite no real evidence that Iran had the intention or capability of attacking the United Sates, and then deliberately downplayed the December 2007 National Intelligence Estimate that reported with `high confidence' that Iran stopped developing nuclear weapons in 2003 because of international pressure;

Whereas the Bush/Cheney Administration has undertaken a broad assault on civil liberties through the suspension of habeas corpus and claiming the power to declare any person an `enemy combatant,' blatantly ignoring the Geneva Convention protections that the United States helped create, ratify, and which carry the weight of law;

Whereas the Bush/Cheney Administration endorsed the torture and rendition of prisoners in violation of stated American policy and values, as well as international law, and then destroyed videotapes which may have substantiated such torture"

And that is just for "starters..."

19 votes

#1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:54 AM EDT

DragonWoman

Here is one that should be added to it. However due to the subject of it, it may render the process moot.

Whereas the Bush/Cheney crime team undertook the hijacking of 2 elections through voter intimidation, fraud, and bribery of official legislative and executive branches of local state governments.

16 votes

#1.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:50 AM EDT

Ryan-339660

David, congress should be held to the same standards of what you propose. They read the same information that Bush and Cheny recieved. Regardless of the thought that you think they doctored the intelligence. These politicians new more then they led on, they are playing politics with the war. When things go bad people jump off the ship and point at someone esle.

4 votes

#1.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:13 AM EDT

SnotRag Dave

Ryan... I had to laugh at your comment:

They read the same information that Bush and Cheny recieved.

You actually think that the intelligence reports which go first to the White House would actually be shared in raw, unedited, undedacted form with members of Congress... especially Democrats?

When things go bad people jump off the ship and point at someone esle.

That sentence more accurately describes the Republicans in Congress who are desperately trying to distance themselves from Bush and McCain in a last-ditch attempt to keep themselves in office.

17 votes

#1.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:38 AM EDT

Ryan-339660

You seem to be a typical liberal, all blame no solution.

1 vote

#1.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:36 AM EDT

Mike Rupert

The Bush administration kept sensitive matters from Congress, and intimidated people in the Justice Department and CIA to put out items of intelligence - in doctored ways - to fit their agenda they were attempting to sell to Congress and the American people. Go read what Richard Clarke - counter-terrorism expert in the Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush adminsitrations - has said on this matter specifically. It'll change how you view the Bush administration.

8 votes

#1.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:43 AM EDT

Andy Hunter

Thanks for this article. I've actually felt like I haven't been spoken to during this election cycle because this is my biggest voting issue. I personally don't feel that we can move forward as a country until there is a full accounting, and guilty parties are brought to justice.

A discovery was made during the presidency of George W. Bush. That discovery is that the president can basically run roughshod over other branches of government, commit crime after crime, generate scandal after scandal on the grandest scale ever seen in this country's history, and no one can/will call him to account for it. Without fixing that, we will be chasing symptoms rather than curing the disease.

If nothing else, the justice department must be reformed to have a greater political and administrative distance from the presidency, otherwise we are powerless to topple corrupt leaders by the peaceful channels afforded us by the structure of our government.

Punishment suppresses lawlessness.

8 votes

#1.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:29 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

I believe you are right Andy...the past is prologue for the future.

As with Sarah Palin and her funding of the genocide in Darfur, we really need a reawkening of conscience in this country. To simply let these things be swept under the carpet is almost as criminal an act as the initial acts in my opinion.

And since it is the people of this country who are the real bosses and are those who elect these folks, continued and blind support of them is complicity in the acts themselves.

7 votes

#1.7 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:39 AM EDT

ForestlakeDeleted

SnotRag Dave

Ooh, Ryan... your thoughtful comment cuts to the bone.

Notice how quickly you came to your own defense with the classic 'liberal' remark.

I'm sure that goes over great at the annual Neo-Con convention.

Do you wear your Vulcan ears?

4 votes

#1.9 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:21 PM EDT

Avogadros

Holy Cow! The kool aid is overflowing here....
David, you said in you opening that the US accused Iran of attempting to construct WMDs with no real evidence of it. Then in the NEXT sentence, you mention that there actually WAS evidence that Iran WAS attempting to make WMDs!!! Do you admit that Bush/Cheney were correct in the actual assessment? That if Bush had not rallied the international community to put pressure on Iran, they would NOT have halted their weapons program and would actually have a WMD by now???
Also, you cannot convict someone without proof. If you convict Bush, then you also have to convict every member of Congress that voted to invade Iraq. All of them stood up and said that they had the proof in their hands. Are you saying that all those members of Congress (both Dems and Reps) are too incompetent to reseach the intelligence in order to confirm it? That they all blindly and irresponsibly voted to go to war without seeing actual truth?
The truth is there were WMDs found but they were from the 1990's. Iraq was a sanctuary and training ground for many, many terrorists. Saddam was willing to pay $25,000 to the family of a successful jihadist that hit the US. Saddam was a tyrant that killed millions of people for revenge and also to keep his dictatorship of terror alive. What is sad and pathetic is that the rest of the world just sat and watched as the US took down that evil empire and realized all the horrors that were materializing.
Now the president of Iran has shown that he want's WMD's. He has repeatedly said that Israel should be destroyed. They refuse to let UN inspectors into their facilities. What will it take to convince you that this guy is not benevolent? Will a mushroom cloud in Jerusalem convince you?

#1.10 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:35 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Avogadros:

If you will notice those paragraphs are the quoted text of the bill before Congress----not my words. Did you read the legislation proposed? Obviously not.

I am at a real quandry as to your purported contradiction re Iran....please explain.

I am not talking about convicting anyone without proof----Bush has a right to due process----even though he believes no on else does have that right.

And as you require---please provide documentation of your data re "WMD's from the 90's"-----be careful though----you may be surprised to find out the First Bush may have given Sadaam those purported WMD's......ooops!

The rest of your comment is seriously lacking documentation so please provide and we can discuss.

3 votes

#1.11 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:29 PM EDT

Avogadros

David,
I apologize if I sounded like I was accusing you of originating those words. What I meant was that by posting what Congress stated on your seed then you reflect their sentiments and thereby making their words yours.
With respect to Iran: The article says that Bush adm. fabricated evidence of Iran's building of nuclear weapons. It later says that the "National Intelligence Estimate that reported with `high confidence' that Iran stopped developing nuclear weapons in 2003 because of international pressure." That is a contradiction. They are accusing bush of fabricating evidence, then they are saying that a report confirms what the Bush adm. has been alleging. I agree that he does deserve due process and IF he is guilty of something, then he should be prosecuted. Also, you don't have proof that (yet you mention you don't want Bush convicted without proof) Bush denies American Citizens that right. He denies foreign enemies of the US that right.
I do not have references (nor the time to look them up) for the facts I mentioned. I'm relying on my memory, which is usually accurate, for the data. Anyone is welcome to look things up. The WMDs found in Iraq were old caches of chemical and biological weapons but are WMDs nonetheless.
If Pres. Bush is guilty of a crime, then he should be taken to court. I would like Congress to stop wasting time and our taxes pursuing a silly agenda.

#1.12 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:03 PM EDT

B2theRight!

I guess the fact that the great Colin Powell testified before congress to the presence of WMD's is just overlooked too right? Turn, turn, turn, spin, spin, spin.

#1.13 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:39 PM EDT

SnotRag Dave

General Colin Powell was misled by the Bush/Cheney administration.

4 votes

#1.14 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:41 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

B2theRight!:

How about dealing with the subject matter at hand??? New thought?

#1.15 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:49 PM EDT

Barbara in Houston

Ryan, You said to SND: "You seem to be a typical liberal, all blame no solution."

Far be it for me to answer on his behalf, however to debunk your generalization of 'liberals' typical or not please read this .

Regards

2 votes

#1.16 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:13 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Oh---if you only really knew how UNTYPICAL I really am.......

I have been on the inside of the conservative movement----my positions now are thoughtful and based on a thorough investigation of facts instead of propaganda as was the manner in which the conservatives I mucked with conducted most of what they do really is------

I stopped drinking the "koolaid"--------and saw things for what they really are, Ryan.

Someday, you might get there too. I hope so because the Bush/Cheney mindset is a terrible waste of a life and mind----

3 votes

#1.17 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 4:48 PM EDT

Jeremiah Johnson

Looks Familiar

ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH

http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=93581

Washington, Jun 10 - Dennis J. Kucinich of Ohio
In the United States House of Representatives
Monday, June 9th, 2008
A Resolution

INDEX

Article I
Creating a Secret Propaganda Campaign to Manufacture a False Case for War Against Iraq.

Article II
Falsely, Systematically, and with Criminal Intent Conflating the Attacks of September 11, 2001, With Misrepresentation of Iraq as a Security Threat as Part of Fraudulent Justification for a War of Aggression.

Article III
Misleading the American People and Members of Congress to Believe Iraq Possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction, to Manufacture a False Case for War.

Article IV
Misleading the American People and Members of Congress to Believe Iraq Posed an Imminent Threat to the United States.

Article V
Illegally Misspending Funds to Secretly Begin a War of Aggression.

Article VI
Invading Iraq in Violation of the Requirements of H. J. Res114.

Article VII
Invading Iraq Absent a Declaration of War.

Article VIII
Invading Iraq, A Sovereign Nation, in Violation of the UN Charter.

3 votes

#1.18 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:54 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

Part of where I got my information from. The three bills of impeachment that Kucinich presented had some good points in them. But uunderlying a;; of the criminal and unconstitutional activity are the acts of pure evil, tyranny and immorality.

I can't say I have hated this man, these men, but HATE their governing I certainly do.

We all deserve answers JJ.

3 votes

#1.19 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:27 PM EDT

Jumpmaster82-436869

It's a start

9 votes

#2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:38 AM EDT

hard to argue with that

they put it in committee so that they never have to vote on it

id dearly love to see it happen but i dont believe it ever will

4 votes

#3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:41 AM EDT

DragonWoman

Didn't Dennis Kusinach try this already???

2 votes

#3.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:51 AM EDT

Agent 57

I'll take a start you have to begin the race in order to finish.

Biden stated that if elected the Obama\Biden white house would look at any possible criminal activity committed by the bush\cheney administration.

3 votes

#4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:56 AM EDT

Broken Government for hire

Umm. I doubt it. I would LOVE for them to hit the reset button and make it like W was never there, but I think whoever gets in will have too many other problems to deal with.

History will deal with W. He will be forever known as the most damaging President to the Constitution of the United States.

It's too bad he tarnished his family name. His father was a good guy, not the best President, but didn't do a bad job. And Jeb was a good Gov. for Florida. He did a lot of school building while he was here.

My 2 cents

2 votes

#4.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:17 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

His father was NOT a good guy!! 1/2 the reason we went in to Iraq, and all the reason we have noriega in prison and saddam dead is because both of them threatened to tell the world about Daddy bush's dirty deeds.

Daddy Bush supplied Saddam with Biological and Chemical weapons to use on the Iranians. The Cia while Bush was running it was smuggling heroin through the middle east, and Smuggling Marijuana and cocain through Panama....

Both Saddam and Noriega have proof that shows this. Bush was using a shipping company here in florida to ship the Arms to Nicaragua and then wanted sealed containers picked up in Columbia...the shipper refused the containers in Columbia and Bush's boys planted Cocain on one of the ships and sent the coast guard after them. the ships were confiscated and remanned to continue the shipments.

4 votes

#4.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:53 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

Jeb did do a good job here, he's the only Bush I have an admiration for.....except it's a fact he never evn let a democrat sit in his office or would not even take an appointment with one.

2 votes

#4.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:02 AM EDT

Agent 57

BG... your two cents are as valuable as any others so.... I hope they pursue it but we'll see....

1 vote

#4.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:24 AM EDT

BCgeorge

There is a quote and maxim about a small, dedicated and commited group being the only instrument that can change the world. I'm sure that we wish to see these changes as beneficial, here, debatable. The United States throughout it's history has stood for the improvement of world conditions. As a Canadian i have watched as the US has been first to respond to disasters worldwide and assist without reservations. For the most part, the world owes you a debt of gratitude. In wars you have fought for what you believed was right. Vietnam and Iraq may now seem to be faulty judgement on the part of politicians and the military, or worse, deliberate deception. My greatest fear is that some people are becoming incredibly wealthy from this Iraqi war, and have no regard whatsoever for the costs in manpower or to the economy. I wish you well in your search for justice, and trust that this dark era of American politics is quickly coming to a close. As far as JEB Bush is concerned, he took the weasel's way out in the 2000 election, he 'recused' himself instead of demanding a full inquiry into the voting and registration irregularities. It seems now that Al Gore was elected president, and probably a tragedy that he was not in office for the past 8 years.

4 votes

#4.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:38 PM EDT

Avogadros

I thought Reagan was President during the Iran/Contra deals.

My two cents: Typical 'do-nothing' Congress following the white rabbit (no pun intended) instead of actually fixing the current problems.

1 vote

#4.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:42 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

Three reasons why this will never happen.

Whereas it appears Bush/Cheney Administration officials intentionally revealed the identity of Valerie Plame Wilson as a covert agent of the CIA for political retribution, and then intentionally obstructed justice by disseminating false information through the White House press office;

A lie. Richard Armitage admitted the leak.

Armitage's Leak

When Richard Armitage finally acknowledged last week that he was my source three years ago in revealing Valerie Plame Wilson as a CIA employee…

First, Armitage did not, as he now indicates, merely pass on something he had heard and that he "thought" might be so. Rather, he identified to me the CIA division where Mrs. Wilson worked and said flatly that she recommended the mission to Niger by her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson. Second, Armitage did not slip me this information as idle chitchat, as he now suggests. He made clear that he considered it especially suited for my column.

An accurate depiction of what Armitage actually said deepens the irony of his being my source. He was a foremost internal skeptic of the administration's war policy, and I had long opposed military intervention in Iraq. Zealous foes of George W. Bush transformed me, improbably, into the president's lapdog. But they cannot fit Armitage into the left-wing fantasy of a well-crafted White House conspiracy to destroy Joe and Valerie Wilson. The news that he, and not Karl Rove, was the leaker was devastating for the left.

The Meaning of the Armitage Leak in the Plame Case

One mystery solved.

It was Richard Armitage, when he was deputy secretary of state in July 2003, who first disclosed to conservative columnist Robert Novak that the wife of former ambassador Joseph Wilson was a CIA employee.
FBI agents interviewed Armitage the next day. In that interview, Armitage admitted he had told Novak about Wilson's wife and her employment at the CIA.

The Plame leak in Novak's column has long been cited by Bush administration critics as a deliberate act of payback, orchestrated to punish and/or discredit Joe Wilson after he charged that the Bush administration had misled the American public about the prewar intelligence. The Armitage news does not fit neatly into that framework.

Armitage was also the source who told Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward in mid-June 2003 that Joe Wilson's wife worked at the CIA.

I do no think Pelosi will pursue this. Why? Hill Briefed on Waterboarding in 2002 - In Meetings, Spy Panels' Chiefs Did Not Protest, Officials Say

In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

Good luck with that one.

Does not seem to matter. In Hindsight, Kerry Says He'd Still Vote for War

GRAND CANYON NATIONAL PARK, Ariz., Aug. 9 -- Responding to President Bush's challenge to clarify his position, Sen. John F. Kerry said Monday that he still would have voted to authorize the war in Iraq even if he had known then that U.S. and allied forces would not find weapons of mass destruction.

1 vote

#5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:23 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

"A lie. Richard Armitage admitted the leak" ---Cheney gave the order and the ok to leak

"Whereas the Bush/Cheney Administration endorsed the torture and rendition of prisoners in violation of stated American policy and values, as well as international law, and then destroyed videotapes which may have substantiated such torture;"

This has more to do with "renditions" than captors on our soil overseas.

And it doesn't matter what Kerry says....the law is the law.

First thing they need to do is put a hold on all their passports...Bush is going to run to Paraguay where he bought 100,000 acres and escape justice.

4 votes

#5.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:44 AM EDT

IndependentVoter

Cheney gave the order and the ok to leak

LOL.....LOL LOL....

Armitage hates Cheney. You have no evidence. Just fantasy.

LOL

You really believe Pelosi is going to allow an investigation on who knew and when about the torture and renditions when she was briefed....LOL LOL LOL

1 vote

#5.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:51 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

Yes. and you are going to be embarrassed at what YOU don't know that is going to come out about this.

3 votes

#5.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:56 AM EDT

IndependentVoter

Play Twilight Zone music....
I bet it comes out in a super secret place, at a super secret time, in a super secret publication, read only by super secret people.

#5.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:29 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

And Armitage acted alone----now who is living in fantasy land? sheesh!

If indeed Pelosi "encouraged" this type of thing she too should be held accountable.

I really am puzzled Independent Voter, why you would seek to justify these acts regardless of who did them or who was involved in the decision making.

Such a position tells us all quite a bit, frankly.

And re Jeb Bush: my sister was his Director of Budget for almost four years----he is NOT a person to emulate or think that he is a nice guy---his public persona is definately one which is leaps and bounds above his brother's and (OMG!) his father's ----- the Sith Lord himself-----

But----Jeb is made from the same cloth....when money is involved.

4 votes

#5.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:45 AM EDT

Avogadros

So, you guys are admitting that Scotter Libby was incorrectly accused of the leak - yet Congress still pursued (and wasted time and money) the conviction of Libby. Yes, Libby was convited of lying under oath but..... Plames court testimony was different than her questioning under oath. No one said a peep about it.

Typical 'do-nothing' Congress.

#5.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:50 PM EDT

B2theRight!

Guess what brainiacs?! This Valerie Plame situation is a totally moot point! She was not an active field agent when she was outed. She had been out of the field for more than 5 years which is the limit for secrecy. This is a complete fabrication on these charges and Cheney didn't have to give him the go ahead to do anything, Armitage has a BIG mouth and an obviously small brain.

#5.7 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:46 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

And Armitage acted alone

Show evidence that he did not. Evidence not feelings. And no...the everybody knows nonsense does not amount to evidence.

#5.8 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:08 PM EDT

UDbmas

B2theRight!

Wrong:

Valerie Wilson was no analyst or paper-pusher. She was an operations officer working on a top priority of the Bush Administration. Armitage, Rove and Libby had revealed information about a CIA officer who had searched for proof of the President's case. In doing so, they harmed her career and put at risk operations she had worked on and foreign agents and sources she had handled. [...]

In 1997 she returned to CIA headquarters and joined the Counterproliferation Division. (About this time, she moved in with Joseph Wilson; they later married.) She was eventually given a choice: North Korea or Iraq. She selected the latter. Come the spring of 2001, she was in the CPD's modest Iraq branch. But that summer--before 9/11--word came down from the brass: We're ramping up on Iraq. Her unit was expanded and renamed the Joint Task Force on Iraq. Within months of 9/11, the JTFI grew to fifty or so employees. Valerie Wilson was placed in charge of its operations group.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060918/corn

The column which outed her was in July, 2003.

2 votes

#5.9 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:09 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

UD:

You are confusing them with facts again....

IV:Evidence that Armitage did not act alone---

Well---for starters---who hired him?

And who oversaw every decision?

Ever heard of respondent superior?

And what about the subject matter of this seed?

Will we ever get a direct response from you?

1 vote

#5.10 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:22 PM EDT

UDbmas

Sorry David. It's a bad habit of mine.

2 votes

#5.11 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:26 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

I see---you may want to get some counseling for that.....

Oh that's right---

You are supposed to get counseling for NOT being connected to reality---

After this latest presidential campaign---I am a bit confused.....

2 votes

#5.12 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:28 PM EDT

UDbmas

Oh dear, now I am being accused of being connected to reality (AAAAACCCCCK!!!).

Guess I will have to watch FOX Fantasy News tonight to correct the problem...

;-)

2 votes

#5.13 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:37 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Or resort to one of VP Cheney's means of "getting at the truth..."

Waterboarding anyone?

1 vote

#5.14 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:39 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

IV:Evidence that Armitage did not act alone---

Well---for starters---who hired him?

And who oversaw every decision?

Ever heard of respondent superior?

And what about the subject matter of this seed?

Will we ever get a direct response from you?

In other words you have none. Armitage admitted he leaked. Testified three times before a grand jury. Admitted to Fitzgerald he leaked. Told Powell he leaked. Not a shred of evidence exists anywhere that the White House initiated the leak....No evidence.....None.

1 vote

#5.15 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:32 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

I would have investigated Armitage for perjury re that testimony-----puh-leease.....

You are assuming the credibility of someone who admits to "leaking" information about an operative....

which proves he is unreliable....get it?

And what about Bush and Cheney's possible criminal activities as described in the proposed legislation?

No answer-----yet again IV.

Hmmmmm........

#5.16 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:05 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Still not dealing with the subject matter of the thread, IV-------

Not that I think you will.

#5.17 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:15 PM EDT

Aalaf Alot

If you vote McCain/Palin, you know one of them will give them a Presidential Pardon.

If not McCain, Palin will give Bush/Cheney and rest of their cronies a Presidential Pardon upon death of McCain.

So Vote Obama/Biden! I hightly doubt on Presidential Pardon.

5 votes

#6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:47 AM EDT

IndependentVoter

You think Pelosi will accept the pardon? Or maybe they have no choice to accept...

There will be no pardons.

1 vote

#6.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:52 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

Bush is going to Pardon Arcelo, a cuban terrorist that bombed parts of NYC and tried to kill the Cuban ambassador. Lieberman has already been in Miami and talked to the people involved with Arcelo.

Bush will Pardon Rove, and Cheney.

2 votes

#6.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:58 AM EDT

Avogadros

How do you pardon someone that hasn't been convicted?

#6.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:51 PM EDT

Avogadros

Studius,

...And Obama will pardon Rezko. Anyone can play that game.

1 vote

#6.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:53 PM EDT

klaatu_berada_necto

Avogadros - Gerald Ford pardoned Tricky Dick Nixon before criminal and civil suits were filed against him. A Presidential pardon is a powerful thing and has been mightily misused.

3 votes

#6.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:28 PM EDT

Aalaf Alot

Remember Bush/Cheney still in office. They can't pardon themselves.

I doubt Bush can Pardon Cheney.Whoever get into office will have the power to pardon people?

Do you think Bush/Cheney will not get away scott free? If Bush/Cheney does not held accountable in the US, they will be may be accountable in the world court.

If McCain/Palin get elected, they going to try to cover up everything especially upon death of McCain. This will invite more scrutiny and deeper investigation.

Bush/Cheney better hope Obama/Biden get elected, at least Obama after all the drama, probably will negotiate something to make all parties happy and satisfactory to all parties. Bush/Cheney will not get away scott free, still be held accountable with a reasonable punishment.

Remember Karma!

2 votes

#6.6 - Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:29 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

We know what world opinion is---and I hope you are right Aalaf----

No doubt this will come back to them----if not now---later.

I guess I am just hungry to see a little bit of truth here and now.....as well.

2 votes

#6.7 - Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:14 PM EDT

lovetrust

David, Kyannabelle has a column, calling for hearings, regarding ALL of the corruption that may or may not have been committed...it's a congress thing, but it may well be that this column fits into the big picture she is trying to construct...she's calling for links to articles...I can't remember the full title, as it is a long one...the word 'referendum' is within it....

...great piece, BTW..

1 vote

#6.8 - Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:05 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

Thanks, lovetrust!

I will give it a look....

1 vote

#6.9 - Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:24 PM EDT

lovetrust

http://kyanabelle.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/19/2016373-

there it is....It'd be nice to engage all these issues in a coherent manner...together we CAN...Obama is calling for this very thing from us....We cannot let him down... I've seen what a bunch of sore losers the repugnantcans were while Clinton was in office, and they were merciless....we must hammer out what the agenda should be, and demand the sunlight laws return our oversight....

#6.10 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:43 AM EDT

lovetrust

http://kyanabelle.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/19/2016373-why-we-need-a-recall-amendment-incompetence-malfeasance-misappropriations-bribery-and-fraud

there it is...the link in 6.10 is no good....I've had a hell of a time getting this link here...

#6.11 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:04 AM EDT

Gnostix1

Will this action, if acted upon, forestall a presidential pardon by GWB for all his water-carriers? I don't think so, though it will open the door to hearings after the election should it be passed in this congress.

Very unlikely that this will get out of a republican-dominated committee unless lots of folks there are running against Bush.

2 votes

#7 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:55 AM EDT

Marsha Christ

AMEN and I Agree that We the People or our Congress; should freeze every single cent of their Assets.

Peace out

2 votes

#8 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:58 AM EDT

Studiusbagus

First thing we need to do is yank every one of their passports, they are going to run if charges are brewing!

2 votes

#9 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:00 AM EDT

UDbmas

Cheney will head to Dubai.

1 vote

#9.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:37 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

Yeah---Dubai---home of some of the largest slave trade building those big beautiful hotels---Darth Cheney will be right at home.....

2 votes

#9.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:47 AM EDT

UDbmas

And it's the new home of Halliburton's head office:

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/dubai.html

2 votes

#9.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:03 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

How fitting.....

2 votes

#9.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:30 PM EDT

Mike-540389

Bush and Cheyney are criminals who should be prosecuted and left to rot in jail. They are collectively, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. They are guilty of war crimes of the highest order but they will both go back to the ranch and live out their lives on the American dole. What a country!

3 votes

#10 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:30 AM EDT

IndependentVoter

It is a great country. Innocent until proven guilty. Great concept. Sorry, it is not to be discarded because it is inconvenient; or it relates to somebody you just don't like. They are to be accorded their constitutional rights..no more..no less.

The Constitution..remember...the document some liberals say these two have shredded. But it is okay to two shred the constitution if it serves your purpose?

1 vote

#10.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:13 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Shred the Constituion.....when convenient----

That actually is the subject matter of this thread, IV---when will you deal with the subject matter and quit resorting to obfuscation?

4 votes

#10.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:17 PM EDT

Mike-540389

Because of who they are, president and vice president, they wield unbelievable power and will never face prosecution. And this is my point. They are criminals and should be prosecuted, but they won't be prosecuted because they are protected by the Constitution. It's not whether I like them or dislike them, but today, hundreds of thousand of people who have nothing to do with Saddam Hussein, ordinary people who were just trying to get by in life, are now dead due to the actions of Bush and Cheyney.

But, guess what, here's what is Constitutional. I get to think and say they should be prosecuted even though they won't be, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it except say your own peace. That's what is great about the Constitution.

1 vote

#10.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:34 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

Shred the Constituion.....when convenient----

That actually is the subject matter of this thread, IV---when will you deal with the subject matter and quit resorting to obfuscation?

In which court of competent jurisdiction has Bush or Cheney been convicted of shredding the constitution?

#10.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:36 PM EDT

KLconsiders

Work is underway....Americanfreedomcampaign.org....during a discussion it sometimes happens that whether it works or doesn't work, the constitution is the law of the land...within it the tools of justice lay, used when those who not only have expertise in using them, have the will to use them. This election is supplying the will.

Things that feel bad are not always bad, besides, feelings are meant to be felt and not acted upon.

1 vote

#10.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:54 PM EDT

Mike-540389

It's not really conceivable to charge the president or vice president of a standard crime since they represent the executive branch of the government. The executive arm enforces the law, and if the president commits a crime and was convicted in a standard court of law, who would execute the judgment of the court? The president would have to execute judgment against himself! Not likely!

This is why Congress is charged with impeaching and convicting a sitting president, and if impeached, the result would be deposal from office. Then, it could be possible to take an ex-president to court. So, the idea of a "court of competent jurisdiction" regarding a sitting president in an actual court of law is a contradiction of terms. It just cann't happen by definition.

However, if by "court of competent jurisdiction," you are willing to allow, say, Laurence Tribe, one of the most well respected Constitutional scholars to make judgment, then Bush has been "tried and convicted" for violating the 4th amendment of the Constitution. Just Google tribe bush constitution and you'll see what I mean. Or, if you don't like Harvard Constitutional scholars, you might try Vincent Bugliosi, who convicted Charles Manson, and has written, The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder. I have a feeling you won't be impressed.

1 vote

#10.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:35 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

court of competent jurisdiction

Would be the US Senate with the Chief Justice presiding. I will go with the Constitution and allow the US Supreme Court to decide what is constitutional and what is not.

Harvard Constitutional scholars have opinions...and well everybody has one.

1 vote

#10.7 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:56 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

IV, "We the People....." we, too, must decide for ourselves on this issue. Complacency and inertia are as much of a threat to our liberties as these men(Bush et al) are. SCOTUS was never designed to be a replacement for our own thoughts and convictions, that is why men and women of great minds are needed to present cases brought before this august body.

Until, if ever, the people of this nation loudly and with great conviction demand that these infractions be answered for, and this campaign of souls spearheaded by great Constitutional experts preassure the legislature to bring these issues before the Supreme Court...nothing will happen.

3 votes

#10.8 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:42 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

The Constitution says what the US Supreme Court says it says.

#10.9 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:29 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Unless....President Bush and his gang tell everyone they will do as they please and are above the law......

3 votes

#10.10 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:33 PM EDT

kakael

iv...yep you're right...bush/cheney are innocent of shredding the Constitution until proven guilty...but please tell me...how can bush/cheney be afforded the very rights they have shredded and taken from all of us...isn't that a double standard...

4 votes

#10.11 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:38 AM EDT

KLconsiders

you right on the money Kakael...now make that call and build a network of people around you who agree...we take care of each other as we go.

4 votes

#10.12 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:18 AM EDT

kakael

kl...you right too...my left hand gets numb from holding my phone...

3 votes

#10.13 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:50 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

The Constitution is a brilliant document. Although 200+ years old, it sets a great framework for the Legal and Social structure of a society. There are 'dated' and 'compromise' inclusions in it, to be sure. If there were not, then we would not have evidence of having advanced those 200 years.

BUT for this man and his gang to defile and eviserate the Constitution is criminal and no less. kakael and KL present very eloquent cases, IV, and you should heed the warnings because these are YOUR rights too.

I have one small divergent point: The modifications (read illegal over-reaches) this moron and his cronies have made to that hallowed document HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED. There is not a need to prove what they have done for it is a matter of public record, just a need to impeach him and put them all on trial for these crimes.

Several times Kucinich has brought articles of Impeachment against Bush 43, and several times Pelosi was complicit in not putting these articles before the Senate. Her actions, while not illegal, should be grounds for serious re-examination of this woman's ability to be the Speaker. A Speaker should speak......if not for the Constitution and the People.......then FOR WHAT?

4 votes

#10.14 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:39 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Agreed Barbara----

I just take humbrage with someone who incessantly changes the subject rather than deal with the question at hand.....

Pelosi is a viable subject matter here---but by far the Bush/Cheney Evil Empire is of far greater importance---Bush is the chief executive......and Cheney is the hand in the sock puppet.

4 votes

#10.15 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:43 PM EDT

lovetrust

kl considers said in comment;

now make that call and build a network of people around you who agree...we take care of each other as we go.

Kyannabelle has a paralell column, regarding the roadblocks thrown in front of the people, in dealing with the corruptions that are obvious to the well-informed....I'll go get a link, as she is calling for them to associate with her column on the matters of corruptions within our present system that will be in need of addressing AFTER this election...

1 vote

#10.16 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:30 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

David: "and Cheney is the hand in the sock puppet." WELL SAID!

They are to me: Bush=Puppet King ; Cheney=Puppet Master ; Rove=King Maker

2 votes

#10.17 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:03 AM EDT

walking dead

This would also be a step in the right direction healing our reputation with the rest of the world. That when given the chance we can and do respect the rights of others for justice, in which we say we hold so dear to our own country...and claim to fight for it in other countries.

Please don't wake me up from this dream yet......

3 votes

#11 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:14 PM EDT

JoulesBeef

Thats one main reason you cant vote for another gop "buffer" or "history cleaner"
like mccain
reagan had Bush Sr to hide all the data from his traitorous dealing with iran.
And Reagan was a traitor that hated this country.
He hated it so much he choose to circumnavigate he very foundational laws.

funny nixon also violated the constituion.. when he SPIED ON THE DNC and many other liberal groups
And then we have bush.. who is another constitution violator.
and the gop says the dems hate america?
Well teh gop is the ones that whipes their but with it's contittion.

1 vote

#12 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:16 PM EDT

Avogadros

*sigh....

Joules, who called America, "...the US of KKK A?"

Who said, "America's chickens... are coming home... to roost."

Does that sound like someone who hates America. Do you know who sat and listened to that hate speech for 20 years? I'll give you a hint: It's not McCain.

#12.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:05 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Oh please Avo---

I have said more critical things than Rev. Wright----does that make me guilty of hate speech or someone who refuses to put up with American Imperialism and the continued blood shed globally all in the name of "protecting our interests" line of synthetic threats?

Again----I am seriously concerned about the lack of conscience here as evidenced by such statements---

I will presume you don't have all of the information because no one with a sparkle of conscience left could attempt to legitimize the Bush/Cheney Blood Machine.

4 votes

#12.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:35 PM EDT

Avogadros

Whoa! There is something afoot here. You are lecturing me about conscience while Joules just accused 3 of the last 4 presidents of treason, hating America, and rewriting history!?!
I had hoped for an intellectual discussion but I will not tolerate double standards and hypocrisy. The American Citizens get enough of it from Congress. That is all I'm going to say.

#12.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:20 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Last I was looking and reading---this particular conversation is between you and me----

You are free to engage Joules----but don't avoid the question or statement I pose....with a change of subject----because---in the end:

Who "hired" the Congress? I think the failure we have seen can be put directly at the doorstep of the American people as well-----of which you and I are a part....so change starts with the individual.

3 votes

#12.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:24 PM EDT

Avogadros

David,

With all due respect, please read my last statement and the reason for it. I consider our converstion over. It was stimulating while it lasted.

#12.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:11 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

American Imperialism

Don't forget about the struggle.

Yawn

#12.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:16 PM EDT

KLconsiders

When Palin asked to have the job of the vice president explained to her...McCain had her taken to a private room, where they could explain the role of the vice president adequately...thus she never brought up the subject again.

(tongue in cheek)

#12.7 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:55 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Avo---

That's it----when things get a little too tough to defend we ignore it-----

Don't think there are any answers or solutions in such a position---but hey----that is your decision.

You are right---"something" is afoot-----its called freedom from the lies and deceit of the Bush/Cheney Kabal.

3 votes

#12.8 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:12 PM EDT

KLconsiders

While I respect what you are saying, I must tell you that this has to be about America. While we bicker and try to find a way to accept what is happening right now, with the state of our economy...the wealthy and powerful divide the booty. We must find some common ground and make our selves heard regarding what they are doing with taxpayer money.

Pelosi did nothing either to hold them to better conduct, or to inform the taxpayer about what the FEDERAL RESERVE was doing with the 700 billion. Part of the "Secret" article said that several republicans sent a letter to Paulsen suggesting he stop what he was doing.....

we hve to believe that what is happeining is real and will continue unless THE CITIZEN who paid for their luxury and ease in life make a noise so loud that they FINALY understand we will not accept it any longer.

I tell myself every morning and with each new "old" headline, that this IS happeing, it is real, and it will not stop or ease by itself anymore.

1 vote

#12.9 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:03 PM EDT

Sharn CedarDeleted

Firewitch

I honestly hope they do get Bush/Cheney for crimes! I want him to answer why he sent my son to Iraq to get hurt and never be the same again. I want to know who gave him the right to bypass the US Constitution. I could just go on forever with what he has done. I hope whoever gets in office gives me back my rights and does away with some of these programs that violate my rights.

5 votes

#14 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:55 PM EDT

pammygamherst

please everyone, read this book 'the prosecution of george w bush for murder' by vincent bulgiosi (he wrote helter skelter and is the attorney who got a murder conviction for charles manson).

in this book he exposes the lies told by bush/cheney/rice about the iraq war and lays out how any competent prosecutor could try them for murder (the 4,000+ solders killed in iraq). i just hope someone has the guts to do so after this sorry excuse of a president is out of office

3 votes

#15 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:23 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Looks to be a scintillating read---pammy---

Thanks for the heads up!

2 votes

#15.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:36 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Sharn:

This is what hopefully we can attempt to prevent---because your words carry weight---although---

I think the reassertion of Democracy as you say begins with dealing with the acts of a true megolomaniac and his entourage----sock puppet that he obviously is.....

1 vote

#15.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:44 PM EDT

travelinfotog

So let me get this straight.. and This is my viewpoint, when comparing Clinton's impeachment to Bush not getting impeached.....

Clinton got impeached for lying about a blow job... Which at last time I checked, didn't get over 4000+ men/women of the U.S. Military killed.. Sure he lied, but did it affect his job on a daily basis?

Bush claimed that Iraq had WMD's, we all the story by now. But that was his main reason for invading a sovereign nation. Bush clearly lied about the WMD's and made up new reasons for continuing his war without proper authority. Bush has in my opinion killed 4000+ men/women of the U.S. Military indirectly! He knew and had to of known that Iraq had no WMD's... He knew Iraq was not tied in any way to 9/11, because he had information of an impending attack and chose to ignore the FBI's information. He instead took a month long vacation instead of getting the "terrorists" at the flight training schools...

Bush gets nothing for his crimes, while Clinton got impeached for oral sex.. Hmm only the conservatives think oral sex is worse than starting a war on a lie!

4 votes

#16 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:41 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

The diparity is really bad, isn't it?

Makes me think the Repubs were more basing their impeachment on jealousy rather than on "righteousness"----

If Bush and Cheney are not made accountable Sadaam Hussein should still be in power in Iraq.....

3 votes

#16.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:01 PM EDT

B2theRight!

Speaking from a military prospective, which you guys seem to ignore...
The members of our military that are fighting in Iraq are there, now don't swallow your gum, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE!!
FACT: We have been "in country" for more than 5 years.
FACT: No military contract is more than 4 years active service.
FACT: DO THE MATH. If any of these guys are still in the military, they have either re-enlisted OR they have newly enlisted!
Truth hurts when you find out that these brave men and women believe in what we are doing and want to help the cause. Get over it. We are doing our jobs, maybe you should join our ranks and you might find the pride that we have and show everyday.

#16.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:58 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

I really don't know how you can speak for everyone in the military----

I know plenty who DON'T want to be in Iraq.

And your last paragraph's content is pretty presumptuous as well---many here on Newsvine are in the military and I have family serving as we speak.

And, again, you avoid the issue....and subject matter of the seed....

Standard fare amongst right wingers these days for some reason.

Are Bush and Cheney's activities just too horrific to contemplate or what?

2 votes

#16.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:05 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

It is called perjury. Lying under oath. Oh, wait it really isn't perjury because..it depends on what you are lying about....right?

1 vote

#16.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:18 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

without proper authority.

Congress voted to give the authority....what other does he need? Oh, I forgot the UN..

LOL LOL LOL

1 vote

#16.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:22 PM EDT

klaatu_berada_necto

B2theright (wrong!)

I fought in combat in Vietnam, but have been listening to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. It doesn't sound like you have noticed that they organized their own group against the Iraq War. I also doesn't sound like you are aware that political contributions from soldiers serving in Iraq are 6/1 in favor of Obama.

George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condolizza Rice, Karl Rove and others must be held accountable for their actions. This is not a blame game, this is individual responsibility and it is deadly serious.

Too bad Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, Spiro Agnew, Henry Kissenger and the rest were not placed before an International War Crimes Tribunal. I hope we have learned the sort of monsters these people become when imbued with more power than they are capable of managing.

Vets for Obama!

3 votes

#16.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:47 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

And again, IV, you fail or refuse to deal with the issue on this thread but simply resort to deflection leading to no where....like that bridge.....

1 vote

#16.7 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:09 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

Yawn

#16.8 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:57 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

Pffffffft!

2 votes

#16.9 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:35 PM EDT

Andy Hunter

FACT: No military contract is more than 4 years active service.

Phew! Because I thought my 6-year obligation was gonna be binding. Can you tell the Navy I'm just gonna get out at 4 because my contract doesn't exist. CC me. Thanks.

5 votes

#16.10 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 3:42 AM EDT

Cloak and Dagger

Hey could you fax a copy of this to my Command as well.

3 votes

#16.11 - Wed Nov 5, 2008 12:22 AM EST

cyregray

They and their co conspirators belong in jail. I love this legislation.

2 votes

#17 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:57 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

They should be given a fairer trial than Sadaam Hussein was----

That is the American Way---contra the Star Chamber.....

3 votes

#17.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:02 PM EDT

jane-573793

I have tried to post a site that has information that sheds a lot of light . BACK in Feb.1998 It has M. Albright, B. Clinton, H. Clinton. and a host of dems even Harry and Nancy About sadam and WMD's. You cannot blame this on just Bush/Cheney. This was a concern During the Clinton Administration, but we all know what was occuping him at the time in the White House. Now all this DEM's have jump ship, What weak, mindless, spineless whimps. Yes, mistakes we made they have been corrected and If sadam was left to do what he wanted to do, then the US And Bush Admin., would have been blamed for that. THINK of the devastation that would have meant for those countries over there! History will Show!

#18 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:02 PM EDT

B2theRight!

Oh and didn't the US Congress almost unanimously vote in favor of taking action? Hmmmmm?

Don't say it was faulty intelligence, because Colin Powell saw the same evidense and agreed that Sadam had WMD's. I guess you will now put Powell on trial too, right?

#18.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:07 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

Yeah same Powell the Dems accused of lying before the UN, now say it is great he endorsed Obama.

Huh?

1 vote

#18.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:19 PM EDT

walking dead

Did you watch the testimony Powell gave the UN. He was very careful not to accuse Iraq of having WMDs. His testimony was about the threat of WMDs and how there is a possibility of them being mobile...etc. There was a 180 degree turn around with Powell during the Bush Administration. I wish Powell would come out with the truth of what happened...we don't know the whole story but Powell got really quiet during that time and his body language was as if he was carrying something heavy.

Before the 2004 election Powell said addamently he would not serve a second term under G.W. Bush. He stayed out of the campaign for most of it til the last month...then he was pressured into appearing. Once that was over your didn't hear him politically speak about the Bush administration.

I saw the same with Condi Rice. Right after 9/11 she came out and said they do not believe Iraq was involved. Then days later Iraq was definitley involved. There has been more secrecy in the past 8 years and so many inconsistencies within the ranks...I don't know what to consider the truth anymore. I try not to make absolute assumptions. I wish they could just blurt out the truth. Trying to make decisions based on BS is fruitless.

1 vote

#18.3 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:11 PM EDT

jane-573793

B2TheRight! Thank you for service, When a see someone in the service, I just want to go up to them Thank them and give them a hug. Thank you so much, who guys are hero's and stars.

#18.4 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:58 PM EDT

klaatu_berada_necto

Gen. Colin Powell was given a load of BS to present before the United Nations by his bosses. When he found out that he was just a political tool, he quit in disgust. Secretary Rice has played the game and must be held accountable for her actions.

This is not a joke and is not funny to those of us who love our country and swore an oath to support and defend the same Constitution the Bush administration has ignored.

You reveal more than you might intend by your ignorant dismissal of this serious issue.

2 votes

#18.5 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:53 PM EDT

walking dead

k-b-n...I still have a respect for Powell...not Condi. I do wish Powell would have come out with the truth instead of doing what the "bosses" told him. I could tell he was under great pressure and not all that willing to do the dirty work for Bush/Chenny/Rumsfeld at the UN. I don't understand why he did it in the first place. That's the truth I would like to know.

1 vote

#18.6 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:10 PM EDT

141trans

its ok with me - just lets do clinton/gore/monic first!

1 vote

#19 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:20 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Sorry---not the subject of the seed....but you are free to start that discussion elsewhere.

#19.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:07 PM EDT

141trans

It is the subject matter, not one you want to here!

#19.2 - Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:09 PM EDT

hard to argue with that

sure thing 14trans

oh yeah getting your dick sucked isnt a crime

now on to GWB raping and pillaging the constitution and the government vaults

2 votes

#19.3 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:52 AM EDT

David C. Kanz

Exactly HTAWT-------

2 votes

#19.4 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:12 AM EDT

141trans

You forgot raping and piliaging of our children, get a life.

#19.5 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:39 AM EDT

hard to argue with that

hes only been raping and pillaging our childrens futures, but hey you were close

well on second thought the death toll in iraq is above 4500 now so i guess killing 4500 american troops to protect corporate drilling rights could i guess be considered pillaging our children

ill get a life when you face reality i suppose

#19.6 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 PM EDT

141trans

I didn't think that "getting your dick sucked" was acceptable language. This opens a whole new world, it isn't a crime - but it cost a lot in dry cleaning. listen clinton was a scum- bag and a disgrace to the office; but since he was a dem. it was ok. Again, you really need to get a life. The poor unfortunates that died in iraq should be prayed for and don't forget the 3000 civilian that got killed on 9/11. One group volunteered for duty while the other like me just went to work in lower nyc.

#19.7 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:25 PM EDT

KLconsiders

Thank God one has to have an extensive education to uphold the law in our justice system, but I am beginning to wonder about juries, after discussion like this.

It is a good character trait to try to be balanced and thoughtful (before one speaks). What the hell is so frightening about discussing a piece of legislation?! it is divisive to refuse to even listen with intelligence and ponder the possible truths within an opinon laced with facts.

this, my friendly republicans is called discourse. If you have convictions you are not being asked to give them up, just acknowledge, every once in awhile when facts are present, that some truth exists. i.e. the Geneva Convention.....against torture. (as an example)

3 votes

#20 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:07 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

We may be asking too much KL---though it won't stop me from asking....

3 votes

#20.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:03 PM EDT

KLconsiders

As another...Habeas Corpus...once placed under arrest, the RIGHT to an attorney.

3 votes

#21 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:08 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Facts---Facts---damn facts-----!!

1 vote

#21.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:03 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

As another...Habeas Corpus...once placed under arrest, the RIGHT to an attorney.

Habeas Corpus

Lat. "you have the body" Prisoners often seek release by filing a petition for a writ of habeas corpus. A writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate to a prison official ordering that an inmate be brought to the court so it can be determined whether or not that person is imprisoned lawfully and whether or not he should be released from custody. A habeas corpus petition is a petition filed with a court by a person who objects to his own or another's detention or imprisonment. The petition must show that the court ordering the detention or imprisonment made a legal or factual error. Habeas corpus petitions are usually filed by persons serving prison sentences.

Right to an Attorney? Ah...NO.

Facts - Facts....

1 vote

#21.2 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:04 AM EDT

KLconsiders

Thank you....we are missing both of these rights, I appreciate your pointing that out for us all.

2 votes

#21.3 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:44 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

2 votes

#21.4 - Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:12 PM EDT

IndependentVoter

Thank you....we are missing both of these rights,

Maybe you should move to the United States

1 vote

#21.5 - Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:27 AM EDT

KLconsiders

I have been a marginalized American Citizen for 26 years....I fight for you everytime I fight for myself and my family. And I hope you know that every time someone bites at me with their point of view, I try even harder to understand them. I don't want someone to 'hate' me because I have a different point of view, or a diffferent experience. I don't need you to like me...just try not to hate me so much that your bites encourage others to hate me, and then politicians see how well it works in having american citizens hate each other.
I don't want much. really. just a job that can keep me and my family in a home, maybe even a kinda new car that doesn't rob my savings (savings empty right now) every other month in repair (transmission is almost done), and the opportunity to feed my family 'fresh' vegetables and fruit every once in awhile.
I just can't figure out how it becomes so easy to blame me (and those like me) for so much of our troubles?
I need my rights desperately...just hang on to the scraps I've got. I just want to have access to what you have....and yes, I work very hard. Most of us americn citizens do.

3 votes

#21.6 - Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:09 AM EDT

markh-2

I think Bush should be tried. He is not much better the Hitler in my book. There was no link to 9/11 and no WMD. He lied and we should bring him into a Court room for doing it.

3 votes

#22 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:31 PM EDT

walking dead

Maybe he could be found hiding in a hole like Sadam Hussien was...little disheveled then brought to justice. I wonder how Tony Blair is going to fair through this with his support for Bush in regards for the war in Iraq?

2 votes

#22.1 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:40 PM EDT

David C. Kanz

Every time I have seen Blair with Bush you can tell he is extremely uncomfortable---but it didn't stop him from being a total sycophant on this issue....

Sad really...

2 votes

#22.2 - Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:02 PM EDT

KLconsiders

A Republican author..."How to Rig An Election". Also see story right here on newsvine.

2 votes

#23 - Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:21 PM EDT

Marsha Christ

I think this is appropriate and G.W. Bush and Cheny should be held criminally responsible.

Peace out

2 votes

#24 - Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:19 AM EDT

IndependentVoter

Why not Pelosi?

1 vote

#24.1 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:01 AM EDT

Marsha Christ

You tell me; if she needs to be with them; OK

Peace out

1 vote

#24.2 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:58 AM EDT

KLconsiders

Pelosi was as responsible when she accepted the oath to protect us...she failed and every other congressional member...they get along better together then they have foster among citizens...country before party. First an American, then maybe a democrat (for me). I am done with these money trading masked Americans.

now they are giving money to big banks so they can buy up little banks, they are cannibalizing our freedoms.

2 votes

#24.3 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:22 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

All, Pelosi is complicit by her tacit approval of the infractions against the Constitution she swore to uphold and protect and the People she swore to represent. She is part of the Bath Water that needs changing. If the citizens of California are reflective of the opinion of the rest of America, that is just what will happen. and good riddance!

2 votes

#24.4 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:53 PM EDT

Jeremiah Johnson

You people are forgetting George W. Bush pardoned himself and his co-horts for crimes committed during his stay in office.

Bush pardons himself against potential war crimes

I am Jeremiah Johnson and this is your wake-up call.

5 votes

#24.5 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:34 PM EDT

kakael

what a treasonous wake up call...does anyone know the bills number...

4 votes

#24.6 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:59 PM EDT

KLconsiders

The American Freedom Campaign Agenda

(The American Freedom Agenda Act of 2007 (H.R. 3835), which addresses most of the issues outlined below, was introduced by U.S. Rep. Ron Paul on October 15, 2007. Click here to read the text of the bill.)

At critical moments in our history, Americans have been called upon to protect our Constitutional guarantees of liberty and justice. We face such a moment today. The American Freedom Campaign is a non-partisan citizens' alliance formed to reverse the abuse of executive power and restore our system of checks and balances with these ten goals:

Fully restore the right to challenge the legality of one's detention, or habeas corpus, and the right of detained suspects to be charged and brought to trial.

Prohibit torture and all cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

Prohibit the use of secret evidence.

Prohibit the detention of anyone, including U.S. citizens, as an "enemy combatant" outside the battlefield, and on the President's say-so alone.

Prohibit the government from secretly breaking and entering our homes, tapping our phones or email, or seizing our computers without a court order, on the President's say-so alone.

Prohibit the President from "disappearing" anyone and holding them in secret detention.

Prohibit the executive from claiming "state secrets" to deny justice to victims of government misdeeds, and from claiming "executive privilege" to obstruct Congressional oversight and an open government.

Prohibit the abuse of signing statements, where the President seeks to disregard duly enacted provisions of bills.

Use the federal courts, or courts-martial, to charge and prosecute terrorism suspects, and close Guantanamo down.

Reaffirm that the Espionage Act does not prohibit journalists from reporting on classified national security matters without fear of prosecution.

3 votes

#24.7 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:03 PM EDT

KLconsiders

Far mpre important....put out the fire, look for the arsonist after

2 votes

#24.8 - Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:05 PM EDT

Barbara in Houston

Ron, Tammy, Dennis (and others).......they all have tried to present aspects of the criminal and immoral actions of this Administration before their august bodies......but it is up to "We the people" to make sure that action does not fall by the wayside.

I have only been active for a few years, and shame on me. I know some of you have been carrying the torch for longer.............but we cannot stop...............these measures have got to be reversed and the guilty punished.

JJ, Perhaps you can point me in the right direction regarding you post above. I have researched whether an EO, SS or ER that is illegal, even if signed by the President, can stand. So far what I have come up with is: Executive Branch only enforces the law, it is still up to the SC to rule whether that bill (sic) is legal or not. Is this a basis for challenging these infractions, including the self-pardon, and if so where can We take this, for the next step?

3 votes

#25 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:16 AM EDT

KLconsiders

look for Frist and retroactive immunity. its an interesting trail to follow...

2 votes

#25.1 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:40 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

thanks KL, looking.......

3 votes

#25.2 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:04 AM EDT

Barbara in Houston

May I add Chris Dodd and Pat Leahy to the list at the beginning of my post above. Thanks KL, they will go on my private mailing list as well.

3 votes

#25.3 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:15 AM EDT

GA GUY

I still think we need to amend this document to take care of the "Presidential Pardon" issue, by giving the incoming President and the Congress the "Right of Review" of all pardons.

The "get out of Jail Free" card must be removed from the deck!!

3 votes

#26 - Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:31 AM EDT

lovetrust

....burn the monopoly boards....!!!

2 votes

#26.1 - Sat Nov 1, 2008 2:42 AM EDT

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Bush/Cheney Should Be Held Accountable for Criminal Activity

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